Iman Attia [ENG]

What word comes to your mind when you think of the Humboldtforum / Berliner Schloss? Please explain.

Well, if I can only name one word concerning the Humboldt Forum/ Berliner Schloss, then I would say that it’s sending the wrong signal. The wrong signal, at the wrong time at the wrong place, because it’s a very expensive project. The money could also be used differently, which will also be discussed alongside the next questions. For example, one could try to make up for things, but also by acknowledging other historical events, finance their rectifying and create a consciousness for the things that Germany was involved in and is still involved in. So there are enough ideas on how to invest that much money, on how to process things on such a central place, on how to commemorate them, how to recall and how to try to process the past. And the signal that is sent, not only because the money could be used otherwise, it is tied to people, to a time and a way of dealing with history that should actually be a part of the past. It’s very restorative and I think Berlin has more to offer. There are a lot of lovely initiatives, there’s so much creative and political strength, that could have been used to create something new, something creative, something that leads into a different political direction that could have been installed at such a central place. Maybe also something that’s more contemporary, more interesting than rebuilding an old castle.

Do you think that Germany should pay reparations to the Herero and Nama communities that were affected by and dispossessed during the genocide from 1904-08? Please elaborate.

Yes, the genocide committed against the Herero and Nama should first be recognized officially. There still hasn’t been an official recognition, an apology and linked to this the effort to try to make up for what happened, as far as that is possible, because some things cannot be made up for. But to try to make up for those things that can be made up for and to reverse and deal with the things that can be reversed and dealt with – reparations are a part of this. Though the government argues that Namibia receives more development aid in connection with the common history, as they like to say. But this is rather a connection to a very disastrous history. Development aid is always paid from the top to the bottom and is connected to certain conditions. So it’s nothing that tries to make up for injustice but it basically creates new dependencies. It’s formulated out of hubris, a position that is paternalistic, that entails something like a civilizing mission, a development mission from a perspective that does not befit Germany in relation to the genocide that they committed there over a hundred years ago. Therefore I think it would be about time to actually recognize what happened – officially recognize – and then to consider together with the Herero und Nama communities how this can be made up for, how reparations can be made. Not only in a material manner but also in different ways.

Do you think that a memorial and informational centrum concerning the topic slavery, colonialism and racism should be built in Berlin? Please elaborate.

Yes, Berlin is a very historical place, a place that has been very steeped in history in the past and where you are reminded of that past in many places in the center but also in the peripheries. And it’s good that one is reminded of and can face the different phases of German and Berlin history. There are very creative and innovative, sometimes also less creative, formats on how to face different periods of our history. Just not about colonialism. This really is a gap, a big gap, in Berlin. And I think it would benefit for one the capital city, but also the vibrant metropolis Berlin, to pool the potential that different communities, NGOs, civil societies, creative folks and so on have. And then build something like one large or many small centers where colonialism, the slave trade, but also current forms of international dependencies, neocolonial structures and racist structures are commemorated and dealt with. One could offer workshops for schools and guided tours addressing different topics. We do have models in Berlin that show how one can deal with history in a very nice, creative, critical, reflexive and nuanced way and how one can make it accessible to visitors, school classes and different age groups by the use of digital media, artistic media and pedagogic methods. So I think it is about time to not only build a memorial, but also to create a center where an active, reflexive and nuanced examination of colonialism and the German role in it takes place.

What’s your take on the many human remains from the Global South that are kept in German museums until today?

Human remains that have been acquired, as some say, during colonialism, that were brought here, that were stolen, that were abducted – I don’t know which term is appropriate – can still be found in German museums. Skulls and bones were brought to remember, for demonstrative reasons, out of nostalgic reasons. But also for “racial research”, that should help to differentiate something like a human race from another and to research it. And hundreds or maybe even thousands of these human remains are partly still stored in German museums, hospitals, archives, in cellars and in shoeboxes. And they are being reclaimed. They are being reclaimed by the descendants of the murdered, the slain and the abducted, so that they can be buried and brought back to their homeland. And it really is a scandal, that the different museum administrations, the government and all the participants are having such a hard time to let go of these human remains and that it still hasn’t occurred to them that the times of racial research should be over, that the times of plundering the world and taking whatever one likes should be over, and that the human remains should be returned to the descendants.

According to you, how important is the equal and conceptional contribution of descendants of colonized people to handle the colonial past (i.e. negotiations regarding reparations, museums, exhibitions, representation in schoolbooks, street renaming etc.)?

Yes, concerning the participation of the descendants in the process of talking about the colonial past: it should also be obvious that the ones who were exploited, whose lives were destroyed, whose social, economic, cultural and natural resources were destroyed, whose knowledge was appropriated, should be taken into account and heard but also that they should also be significant actors in the process of tackling the colonial past. The funding institutions, but also actors of German society should seek advice from the people who suffered under colonialism. They have different stories to tell from a perspective of the ones who suffered but also they have a different intensity of engaging with the topic over the years than we have. In contrast to students in the Republic of Germany, who normally don’t even know that there was such a thing as German colonies, the children in the former colonies grow up with that knowledge. That means that they also have more knowledge, different knowledge and much more refined knowledge. So we would be well-advised to let ourselves be advised. It’s not only about morally-obligated inclusivity, which is also important, but also about inclusivity in order to profit from these other experiences, insights and perspectives. But it’s also about including the different perspectives, in particular the perspectives of the exploited people whose knowledge was appropriated and to give them space to portray their knowledge and their perspectives on their own. And I think that would also be interesting for the Berlin but also German community to not only take into account their own knowledge and perspectives but also to get a perspective on the shared history from the outside, to get some food for thought and listen to some other contributions to the debate.

Additional comments:

Maybe it would be important to add that we usually talk about “the” German perspective and “the” perspective of the colonized, or in this case Herero and Nama. And what I noticed is, that there are a lot of critical voices, not only from diasporic groups, but also from within the white majority society, who think that this “Schloss” is unnecessary. That they would for example be happy to earn less if they could gain a clearer conscience about the history of their nation, that they are a part of. And these voices are not heard either. If this castle is being built and the critical voices are just ignored – who will visit this castle? It will be a particular group, probably one that sees itself as the educated elite. But I could imagine that a lot of white, critical people, who would want to see that their history is reflected in a more diverse way, would want to go to a different place/museum than the one that is being built right now. But also, if the concept would have been a bit more creative one it could reach groups that would probably not engage with such a topic. So, there are certain demands that are not seen and such a museum does only reflect a self-image that many people don’t agree with. So, from this side too, the arguments should be heard. However, if we are talking about human remains, colonialism and reparations the voices of the victims are the most important ones. Regardless of critique from within the white majority society these voices would be the most important ones.